Need some advice

[CypherDragon]

Hello all,

Sorry for my first post being asking for advice, but that is how I came across these forums in the first place.

I've been talking to a lady for the last ~8 months on chnlove, and I'm still torn on if it's just a scam, or she's being honest and something else is going on, or I'm just being obstinate. We've exchanged many EMFs, chatted, and had a few phone calls over the last few months. She seems like a very nice girl, and definitely says all the right things. She told me that she's attending college in Calgary, Canada (and I do believe this, she send me a photo of her passport with the visa in one of our first EMFs) and has sent me several everyday photos, including one of her with her mother. Recently though, there's been some...friction. We have tried making plans a couple times to meet up while she's in Canada, but something always happens that caused us to delay. I told her that I needed to stop paying chnlove so much for us to talk, since with the money I've spent there I could have been to meet her either in China or Canada a couple times over. I've tried to get her contact info thru chnlove, but she's said there has been some difficulty with her agency in putting it on the site. So, a couple weeks ago I signed up for QQ and asked her to start talking with me there. We exchanged QQ numbers over a call, and she said that she would talk with me there, but she doesn't get on QQ much. She still hasn't accepted my QQ invitation, and when I press her about it, her reply is always to be patient.

It seems that the history so far has been lots of delays, but lots of money for chnlove. I'm started to get really frustrated, which is how I found the China Love forums. I was looking for more info on her agency (P508), and the forums were one of the first Google hits. Since reading some of the horror stories there, I've really been wondering if I've just been a sucker for the last few months, or if there's something I just don't understand. I've asked her about it, but she always deflects the questions.

Sorry for the long-winded story, my mind tends to ramble a bit. There's of course more to the story, but I don't want to bore anyone too much. If you want to chat, my QQ is 2818930271, and the same username as here. I'm a 3rd shift worker, so I'm normally up and online all night.

Cheers,
Cory

[Willy The Londoner]

So when you spoke on the telephone was she in China or Canada?

Is she in Canada now or back in China for the holiday?

What city is P508 based?  It seem to be one that I remember.

If you have passed each other's QQ details and she does not communicate that way then the red flags should have been considered a few months back.

I think after 8 months that you should now be on regular telephone calls and QQ or even Skype but if you are still using EMF's then it is more than likely that you are being scammed.

The agencies that have paid Chnlove huge sums to be on the website are desperate to claw back as much as possible and it is no holds barred in that respect.

Willy

[CypherDragon]

We've had calls both when she was in Canada and at home in China. She is currently with her parents in China on holidays, but will be starting back at campus again in late August. Our latest plan was to meet when she returns to campus after the holidays, depending on her school schedule.

P508 is based in Shenzhen, it's the Shenzhen Oriental Love Consulting Co. Ltd. agency. She is from Hubei province, somewhere within an hour's trip of Wuhan, and was working in Shenzhen as a translator before leaving for Calgary last year...or at least so she's told me.

To be honest, I didn't know about QQ until about a month ago, and didn't know if any other chat service worked in China. We just exchanged QQ numbers last Friday, and that was the last phone call we had. She has tried to call more often than we have actually talked, but it was all through chnlove, which as am sure most here know is a very expensive way to talk. Many of the times I was busy with other things (working or teaching class), so the call rolled to voicemail. Apparently chnlove's service doesn't recognize voicemail, and I have easily a dozen messages with her just asking "hello? can you hear me?" I have tried to give her my direct phone number a couple times, but I'll admit that I'm a novice at international calling, so I don't know if I gave it to her correctly. She has told me that her phone plan in China doesn't allow international calls, and she uses a different phone number when she's in Canada.

To be honest, there's been a few red flags, but she's very good at redirecting the conversations. For example:
-We had a plan to meet in Calgary around the start of this year, but her mother fell ill and she wasn't sure if she would have to leave the school semester early to go home and take care of her.

-The plan was then for me to come up at the end of the semester before she returned home for holidays, but by the time I was able to confirm I would be able to come, she had already booked her flight back home...the day after I would be able to travel.

-We've been planning to meet when she comes back to Canada at the new semester, but that was pushed back because she doesn't have her schedule yet.

The new semester is supposed to start at the end of the August, and she should have her class schedule in a couple weeks. She's told me that she wants me to come up as soon as she has a few days with no class so we can spend time together, instead of just coming up and risking that she would be busy with schoolwork.

So, I'm torn and frustrated. Do I bite the bullet and wait out the next few weeks to see if we can actually make the plan to finally meet, or do I assume that I'm being scammed now and drop the whole thing? I have a few credits left at chnlove that I can write to her with, thanks to their Chinese Valentine's promotion, but I really am at a loss as what to do. It seems that anything I have tried to get out of the chnlove moneypit with her is either delayed, or she is unwilling to do. Am I wrong to think that if she did care, and wanted to move our relationship forward, that she would jump at the chance to talk more often?

Cheers,
Cory

[Robertt S]

I agree with Willy and want to add one more detail concerning agency tactics. Many agencies, but not all agencies charge the lady a " meeting or introduction fee" when you show up to meet the lady in China. The agency wants this fee and the only way to be certain to collect the fee is to arrange the meeting on agency turf and terms! ie; in China in the agency's city with an agency representative! This may be the reason you are being stonewalled on the meetings in Canada. If she hasn't recommended for you to come meet her in China by now I would be really suspicious since the agencies usually only have a year to fulfill their contractual obligation to the client ( lady ) or refund her the contract fee. If it has been 8 months and no mention of a meeting in China either the girl is got someone else on the line and you are her backup plan or the lady told her translator she was not interested in you, but the translator hasn't told you hoping to keep you on the line as long as possible to collect emf fees. If you have a child, this can cause many Chinese women to look elsewhere. It seems they expect men to accept their children but do not relish the idea of raising someone else's children. Either way I would be extremely cautious and start demanding some concrete proof that this woman is really interested and the only way to know that is meet in person. Chats are ok if the woman understands English and you understand Chinese because if neither one of you speak the others language then you have no idea what the translator is saying to her about you and you have no idea what she is telling the translator to say to you. A good translator can have a chat session and manage to convince both parties that everything is perfectly fine, so be careful.

[CypherDragon]

All of our phone calls at least have been direct - no translator involved. She speaks good English for the most part, with just a few errors here and there that can be expected from someone that hasn't had a lifetime of speaking English. (Just for a note, my first wife was an immigrant from Mexico, and I've worked for various international companies, so I'm used to broken or not-so-perfect English). From what I've read in her letters and our chats, I don't think she has been using a translator for our contact. I haven't had the experience of some of the guys here with her not knowing what I've written from one letter to the next, or saying things completely differently in chat. I do have a child, a young son, but he doesn't live with me. I made sure to tell her this when we first started talking, since I know some people don't want to have a relationship with a single parent, but she said it was fine and has asked after his health and how he was doing several times.

She has brought up meeting her in China a couple times, but I haven't been able to come up with the funds for a trip AND pay for chnlove at the same time, and I've told her this. We agreed on meeting in Canada as a compromise, with promises to make plans to visit both families in the near future after that. I'm not sure what contract she has with the agency - I've brought it up before after learning that some of the agencies charge a "matchmaker fee" after you get married, but that was months ago and she never really answered. I didn't know about the year time limit...the last "refresh" of her profile was in Sept...if anyone wants to take a look and see if they see any flags in her profile, her ID is P5081164, and her name is Stefanie.

[Willy The Londoner]

Skype video contact is free and it can be used in China. as well as in Canada.
I have been here for more than 5 years and always have used skype without any problems.

When you send emf's the lady does not receive them The translator will pass her the message by telephone and take any answer and send it to you. 
The translator can omit anything that is not in the agencies interest both ways and neither you or the lady will ever know.

Willy

[CypherDragon]

So I have seen reading some of the stories here. Is it always done via phone? I know that Stefanie has her own laptop, since that's she's been on when we've chatted...and one of the times we were going to have a call, she said that her phone had broken and couldn't make it then, but she still got my EMF and replied to it the same day.

I hope I'm not coming off as defensive, and if I am please feel free to call me on it. I'm just trying to figure out what's going on, or if it's better to cut my losses and run 

[maxx]

Willy Skype and QQ don't always work the deeper you get in China. It do's work great on the coast.

As far as cypherdragon go's I would just wait to see what happens in a couple of weeks. The schools do start back up again in a couple of weeks. If she is really going to school in Canada. It is hugely expensive. So she has got a sponsor. So she isn't going to kick that to the curb.

Robert mentioned she may have somebody else on the line. She could have. There has not ben a meeting so nothing is set. She maybe keeping her options open.

I would just wait it out for a couple of weeks.And see how this works out.

[Pineau]

 CypherDragon,

In my humble opinion you have already been robbed. Yes it is a scam. To accept a QQ friend takes just a single click of the mouse. There is no excuse.  You are being spoon fed bullshit flavored with endorphins.

Everyone that comes here with this same story eventually figures out that they have been had several hundred or thousand dollars later.  It all smells just to familiar.

The phone conveniently broke. Wow, amazing.  Next the internet will break!
Passport with a Canadian visa in it. The Chinese are masters at forging documents and making fake things seem real.
My friend you are falling in love with the translator. Stephanie probably has no idea of who you are and even if she does she is not reading or sending EMFs to you . The translator is.
"All of our phone calls at least have been direct - no translator involved."  Well I know a lady in Guangzhou that worked for one of the marriage agencies. She speaks good (broken)English and they call her into the agency from time to time to chat on the phone with  foreigners, in place of the woman you think you are speaking with.  My guess is you spoke with a stand in.

Do you really want the truth?
Are you absolutely certain she is going to school in Canada? Did you make the call and was it a Canadian phone number?

Try this.
Refuse to talk to her until she is ready for a video call.  Scary!
Demand that she does a video call with you.  Very Scary! maybe they will dump you.
Block her on Chnlove and see what happens. If she cant EMF you then the other alternative is QQ. This will probably end it forever.

Shenzhen women (many of them) are stunning. They must be in order to live well there.  I took a look at Stephanie. She in a nice looking lady. But don't be surprised if she does not measure up to her photos. Those are professional glamour shots and the highlights have been intensified (to hide wrinkles and blemishes) and they have been photoshopped. And I am a bit surprised that such a lovely lady went to college in Canada and some nice Canadian boy didn't snatch her up already....think about it.

I hope I am wrong and crying wolf. You seem to be very fond of Stephanie.  But if you are being scammed then you need to protect yourself. I have been in your shoes and it cost me dearly to find out that I was being had. TWICE I WAS A FOOL! I found my wife the old fashion way. I went to China and started dating.

My new friend there are so many red flags in your accounting.  Either she is real or she is fake. (I'm leaning toward fake.)  Its more than red flags, the barn is on fire!  You cant see it because your too close it. And don't be embarrassed if you have been played. It happens to the best of us. But you are still young and can sort this all out. Analyze it yourself. Take yourself out of the equation and for a minute pretend it is your best friend telling you this story. Now look at it piece by piece and as someone not involved and advise him based on your analysis, what he should do.  I think if you can do that,  the answer is clear.

It is hard to remove yourself and feelings from this but you must if you want to have a sound unbiased opinion.

I agree with Maxx. School starts soon. Wait it out but be there to greet her. No excuses. Save yourself a trip and try to verify her enrollment in the classes.

I also agree with Robert. "start demanding some concrete proof "

An after thought. Just gather the information you need for making you decision. This is no value in accusations or confrontation. If they think  that you have doubts they will have stories prepared on step ahead of you. If you present a suspicion without hard evidence they will explain it away like no big deal. They are great at thinking on their feet and can create one lie after another until you are convinced you are wrong and ready to apologize to her.

[Pineau]

Well you came here for advice. So now you got me thinking.

If Stephanie turns out to be a potbelly translator with a hairy chest...Where do you go from there?
For sure, far away from Chnlove. You can get lucky there and a lot of the guys have. Just look online . You will find a few success stories and just as many horror stories and a few that are obviously written by Chnlove staff to defend their employer.

Here's a good story.
"I created a joke profile featuring an absolutely hideous picture of a white male and saying things like in my free time I like to beat women and pee on myself and that I'm unemployed looking for a rich whore etc. I still got just as many responses as my real profile did."
 Do you sense that I am biased? Well yes I am. I am out a couple thousand over two different "fake" ladies I met in Chnlove. I am not a stupid man but the translators have much more practice and experience than you and I together.

I see you have a few problems. You are 33 years old, right? Well if you find someone your age she is probably divorced with a kid. If you can handle that then fine but remember that her priority in life is NOT YOU! It is to assure the survival and comfort of her own DNA (her kid).  If you are very very lucky she is still single.  Most of the better choices are about 10-15 years older than you and I would certainly beware of someone younger than you. China is not a rice farm any more. The younger ladies are street wise and sophisticated.

You say you are having trouble raising money to travel to China.  That s big problem because you will need to go eventually to meet or just get some prospects.

And how do you make connections? Well QQ groups are a good start. There are user groups you can join and there are dating personal ads there too. Dont ask where cause its been a long time. Enable google translate on you Chrome browser. Then set it to always translate. You qet you QQ pages in English (as best google can do)

There is Chinese love match. Chineselove cupid. (they are the ones that bought chnlove but I don't think the policies carried over yet). There are many more but those two are my favorites.  http://www.chinalovecupid.com/      http://www.chinalovematch.net/

There is also Roberts site http://www.xingfulove.com/   
And my thread on here. http://www.chnromance.com/index.php/topic,3308.msg66127.html#msg66127  but  the women there are too old for you.

[David E]

Run Forest...run 

I can tell you from personal experience that when and if you make contact with a "real" woman, she will bust her gut to get face-to-face with you (on-line or QQ) in the quickest possible time frame.
If she is serious about meeting, attracting and catching a Western husband, she has no interest or no potential productive future in procrastinating...she is serious.

Endless procrastination, broken phones, sick Mothers and all that crap are the age -old put-offs that scammers use to keep you spending money in vain hopes.

Again, if and when you meet a "serious" woman, you had better be sure to have the wherewithall to get over to China to meet her...if you dont, she will be less than convinced that YOU are serious.

China Love is a money making fiddle farm. Outside of China Love there are many good women...who will expect some action from you to demonstrate that you are a good potential husband.

Good Luck !!

[CypherDragon]

Thanks guys, I appreciate the honesty and reality check. Pineau, you are absolutely correct that I'm too close and invested in this to be able to see clearly, which is why I found this forum and bucked up the courage to finally ask. I've been lurking for the last couple of weeks, just reading some of the info here. I'm already a member on Robert's site, and already in contact with him...which is pretty much the direct cause of my post.

To answer some of the specific points raised:

Are you absolutely certain she is going to school in Canada? Did you make the call and was it a Canadian phone number?
Negative to both, all our calls have been through chnlove, which has been a concern. She has sent me a photo (attached) that certainly looks like the interior of a college dorm, but no proof that it's in Canada. I also have a few photos from a few locations that look very much like photos I've seen of Canada, but they could very well be from just a vacation trip, or from somewhere else.

But don't be surprised if she does not measure up to her photos.
Oh believe me, I know this one from using online dating here in the States. Luckily, she fully acknowledged that her profile photos were professionally done, and has sent me quite a few that are either truly natural, or done by someone with phenomenal Photoshop skills.

I am a bit surprised that such a lovely lady went to college in Canada and some nice Canadian boy didn't snatch her up already
I have thought about that, and asked her about it. Her reply was that she hadn't met anyone in Canada that she liked, but she did kind of gloss over the question. Since it was early on in our conversations, I had assumed that she was merely keeping her options open at the time.

I see you have a few problems....
You again are absolutely correct, in fact one of my requirements is that she either not have kids, or if she does then they doesn't live with her. I've been a step-father before. My ex-wife is 11 years older than me, and had a child when we met. Having a child ripped from your life by some aspect of the law (I wasn't aware I would have to go through the formal adoption process to protect my relationship with him) and a bitter ex-wife is something I will not repeat. I can handle the aspect of being a step-father, but I won't put myself at risk for that pain again. It's been hard enough the first time...thankfully it's been getting better with the more time that passes from the divorce, but I don't think I could handle going through it again. That part of my past has also soured me to significantly older women, so I have been looking for women within 5-7 years of my own age...I know it's a high hurdle to find women in their late-20's early-30's without a child, but I know they're out there. Children are one of the few points I'm not willing to compromise on at all, even if it does make me a hypocrite for having one of my own.

Affording a trip to China
I actually could make the trip without a problem, it would take a little planning, but I could easily save enough money for a comfortable week in China in a month or two. I can't spend more than a week due to my job's PTO policies, but the trip itself isn't an issue. However, as you're well aware, chnlove has a tendency to suck money pretty rapidly. I can't afford to save for the trip and continue paying chnlove's fees, due to my other obligations (house payment and child support mainly), which I've told Stefanie, and I would expect any honest and serious women to understand.

Points raised by David E and Maxx
That is pretty much what I have been thinking lately - if she was really serious about our relationship, then she would jump at the chance to be in more regular contact, by any means necessary. I called her on all the delays and excuses that have occurred, with her replying that it has just been really bad luck. That's what led me here - it's all a bit too convenient...I want to trust her, after all I have spent the last few months talking with her, but I'm a bit skeptical at this point. I've been considering giving her an ultimatum that I won't put up with another delay when she gets back to school, but with her reluctance to chat on QQ, I'm seriously wondering if it's even worth waiting the couple of weeks for, or just cut my losses at this point, chalk it up to experience learned, and move on.

I sent Stefanie another letter last night, demanding a reason for why she seems so reluctant to talk other than through chnlove, but I've yet to get a reply back. I guess we'll see what happens next.

Just to tell you guys a little about me, I have problems starting conversations with people. That's one of the reasons I like the internet...it's part of my nature to watch and observe, before joining in. Once I get past the initial meeting and conversation starts flowing, I'm usually okay, but I prefer to know as much about someone or a group before participating. It's been a problem I've battled my whole life, since I have an almost irrational fear of rejection that I've never been able to overcome. To be honest, if it wasn't for Robert's reaching out on Xingfu, I would probably still be lurking here and feeding more of my hard-earned into the chnlove system. It's one of the reasons I've had such a hard time meeting women, or even growing my social circle around where I live.

As an aside, and at risk of derailing the thread (hey, it's my thread I can derail it if I want to ) any advice you guys can give for learning Chinese? I've been looking online, but since I don't personally know anyone that speaks Chinese, that part has been very hard. I'm to the point I can read some Pinyin and understand it, but Hanzi still escapes me...

[Willy The Londoner]

I have a Chinese Language teacher who comes 3 days a week.  But in between these I go to Ask Benny on you tube. He has dozens and dozens of videos short but really down to the point and I find those are the best because they are not to heavy.

Looking at your replies then it strikes me that you are yet another victim of the Chnlove scam.

If you really want to find a genuine Chinese lady then get over here if you can. At your age there will be a line of women wanting to chat with you.

Willy

[Pineau]

Ditto what Willy said. Get over to China but dont go cold. Have names and phone numbers of ladies that have agreed to meet with you before you go.

I used Pimsleur Mandaring Chinese learning course. I have volumes I, II , III. Perhaps I could find  way to "loan" them to you as I am not using them right now.  I put them in the car CD player and listened to them on the way to work. They are very interactive and you must participate in the conversation.  (not good for sleep learning)

[Robertt S]

Just to give you an idea of what quality of fake passports are available in China. This is a fake passport that has been used in an internet scam.