WARNING

[Martin]

Actually, I was wondering the same thing as David5o.

I realize I am not the most experienced member, but I found when i was there, that the day did not end until midnight or sometimes a little later.  9:30 in the evening was considered early...usually just finishing supper around this time.

[Chong]

In China, a lady who stays out late ( i.e. 11 pm - midnight or beyond ) is viewed as a 'loose' lady by the elders/seniors. Having said that, my fiancee lives a 5 minute walk from my hotel so I walk her home for 10:59:59 pm just to beat the deadline ............. hehehe :icon_cool: In fact, her Mom will start calling after 11 pm to inquire about her whereabouts.

You especially have to watch out for those country bumpkins from Bancroft, Ontario, Canada.

Mike made a good personal point. Everybody has their own unique situation. As they know each other more, she'll stay longer as they become more a couple.

[David5o]

Mike,

Are you saying, ...that you've been writing to an agency/translator for 14 months??
If that's the case, your taking all this very casually i must say, ...I'd be hopping mad myself, ...and totally gutted!!!!

But then how did she know you were coming to visit her, from her home in Japan?? She must have been involved in that deception surely? I just can't believe that you have been writing all this time, and had no idea whatsoever that she was living in Japan and not China...

I remember what now seems to be a farce, the episode about her going to enroll her daughter in school in Japan. Then finding that she was in China when you arrived!! Now she's telling you she doesn't want you visiting her in Japan, because she can't speak the language too well!!! How is she living there and can't speak the language?? Japan isn't exactly a cheap place to live Mike, and schooling costs are going to be expensive too.

I've read what you have posted above, it's not your fault that she doesnt know you well, if she had been honest with you and took the time to read and reply to your letters herself, ...she ''would'' know!! To be honest, it is you that needs to be able to trust her , rather than her being able to trust you.  You have done your best to have been honest with her all the way through this 14 months!!! It's not your fault that your both a stranger to each other is it ?

The way i'm reading your post above, ....is that it's you, that's having to make all the allowances to Jessica, i think she needs to make a dammed site more allowances to you Mike. You must have spent a small fortune over all these months in EMF's (let alone the time emotion it took writing them) and now your trip to meet her, only to be told that those 14 months were at best a complete waste of your time and money, and that if you don't want to give her up you have to start all over again from scratch??  Hell, ...now it's her being afraid of you not having a job right now!! Not thanking you for coming to be with her, ''despite'' you not being employed right now....  

God, i bet you have been doing a lot of thinking and soul searching over these past few days Mike, I don't think i would have been able to carry on myself. Just make sure that in your own mind, your doing the right thing. I know it's hard just giving up on 14 months of time and emotion, of your life, ....but just know where to draw the line, if any more surprises start suddenly appearing. ....I really feel for you right now!!

David....Chong,

I know what your saying, and may be that was true in the past, But in the 8 years that i lived there, i have never come across a lady of my age group ever bringing that up or indeed adhering to that philosophy.

Let's face it, they are not young and single anymore, they are mature women and often divorced with grown-up children.... i think they have deserved the right to come and go as they please ....don't you ??

David....

[Scottish_Rob]

Mike you know something mate, we 'you and I', as you know have been PM'ing each other, however, I do agree somewhat with what David is saying...  Yes you are starting over, and the trust will come back between you..eventually.  But, with the deception that has taken place, can you be sure about her life in Japan?, have you her home phone number from Japan that you could call to see if anyone (e.g another male) answers??? While she is still there in China with you. This is just a thought because somewhere in your posts you mentioned that she did not want you to go to Japan?

I don't think there is anyone on here that would 'want' you to get hurt more than you have?  Maybe it 'IS' a case for, 'being sure', surely it would be better knowing now, rather than a couple of weeks/months down the line...  You mention mate that you only feel deception from the agency, that is not true buddy, she done a web cam with you, she 'SHOULD' have been more HONEST with you face to face.

Whatever you decide, I am sure that the WHOLE brotherhood is BEHIND YOU, so the comments that are coming in, is showing you we are all on your side..., and trying to look out for you... with our 'different' viewpoints and thoughts.

[David5o]

Mike,

About the big bad colourful Wolfs, ...How many of these men spent 14 months writing Emfs to her??  I'll hazard a guess here, ....None!!

The agency couldn't have pulled this off by themselves, there had to be knowledge of what was going on by Jessica, otherwise she wouldn't of been there to meet you. Whatever way you look at this situation you've found yourself in, there was deception, and deception from both of them. If your looking past that, and moving forward as you indicated in your post, that's fine, but keep it in mind Mike don't totally forget it.

I think trust is the hardest thing to recover, and you need to do exactly that if your relationship is going to succeed. I hope you do find it possible to recover that trust, because it's clear you want this relationship to endure and succeed!

But surely not at ANY cost!! Good luck Mike, and i really do mean that, ...for both of you!!

David....

[maxx]

Only Mike can decide if this is right for him.I took a total different slant on the post.The girl has ben burned before and doesn't want to get burned again.She is writing to a man or the translater is writing to the man wich she has some involvment in.Thsi is a big commitment on the part of the lady.Especially after she has ben burned.From what I gatherd from Mike's post she has written to other men before.And they didn't follow through.So I'm thinking she is a little gun shy.So Jessica is just protecting her self.And her daughter.

No I wouldn't of ben happy with the deception.But when you know some of the facts as I'm sure Mike does.It is alot easer to understand.

David you met Lucy when you were living in Chine Right? This online dating things has a lot of twist and turns that you missed out on by being there.So the lady does need a little leaway.The ladies are writing to a person from a different country with different customs.This is a big step for her.As it is for us.

Take willy for example.He lives in Zhuhai.Is getting along great with his lady.Why?.Because he is right there right now.He isn't trying to build a relationship across the enternet.It is a totaly different playing field.When you are using the enternet.

[Bob]

Removed by Author,

I decided to remove my comments here, I feel that perhaps my post came across the wrong way and I did not mean any disrespect to anyone here.

[Chong]

Let's face it, they are not young and single anymore, they are mature women and often divorced with grown-up children.... i think they have deserved the right to come and go as they please ....don't you ??

Well your age group 40+ may be a different story in itself. But whatever age group, women ( particularly 'singles' ) still respect the opinions of the their elders and don't want to lose face even ... if they're not a 'loose' lady. This is not only my opinion but told by ladies here themselves to me. Gossiping & speculating among neighbours is a huge social activity. The bottom line is ... to each their own.

[maxx]

Bob it is just a opinion.My wife wanted to meet a Canadian.When I asked why not a American.She said because her friend lived in Canada.And that is where she wanted to go.

All it is is just the other side of the coin.I remember in School.They told us How bad and how dangerouse the Chinese people are.When I went to China the first time.One of my first thoughts  When I arrived in China was.My goverment lied to me my teachers lied to me.

I'm pretty sure that is the same thing Jessica is dealing with.It is something that she heard or read somewhere.

[shaun]

Ultimately men as much as we want others to succeed in this off the chart way of looking for a woman to spend the rest of our life with it is up to the man who is seeing the woman.  We all want 2 things for Mike. 1. That he succeeds in finding a good wife and 2. that he is not burned badly in the process of looking. One of the things that happens is that we hear about the man who was burned but we hear very little about the woman who was burned.  It appears to me that the Agency did something wrong with Mike but wanted to make things right with Jessica.  From what I can see Jessica is saying all of the right things to Mike.  We can't judge Jessica because we do not see the whole picture in this situation but Mike has a better chance of seeing it than we do.  He sees the look in Jessica's face and how she responds to him.  

As far as the judgmental thing about Canada. People have a tendency to judge everything that is associated with the offender.  I see the same thing in this thread today. Some of you are judging Jessica by other women who have burned other men.  Neither of these are good.

If I were faced with the same exact situation and seeing how she is dealing with the issues I would rather spend as much time with her until I am able to go home.  He can take up the issue of deceit with the Agency once he gets home.  I think considering all that is going on Mike has been handling things admirably by checking where she is as far as the relationship is concerned and working toward separating her from the agency so that they can really get to know each other better.

I know it is difficult to watch a man move down this path but Mike a one who can handle it. He isn't afraid to ask questions to clarify issue and is doing a great job here.

[Neil]

Thing is Scott, Mike's dealing with the situation the way he wants to deal with it.  If he has to bend, let him bend.  Don't hold it against him for being and acting different than you would.  I believe it is the man's place in life to deal with the emotional woman, to be the rock of stability to her ocean of instability.  

We chose the path we take.  If you want an eastern woman to adapt to you, you had better lay that on the table early and clearly so she understands that and so she can decide if that's the path she wants to follow.  There's nothing wrong with it.  There is give and take in every relationship.  Communication is key.  That and the ability to not get upset with something goes sideways, because it always does, to some extent.  

A quick note on honesty.  Honesty goes both ways.  I don't mean her to you/you to her, I mean give and take.  If you think she's not being honest and don't confront it, you are responsible for the outcome.  Demand honesty and show honesty and you will receive honesty.  And yes, honesty is a bit lower on the scale in China than face.  So, that makes our struggle that much tougher.

[maxx]

Scott I did read the posts all of them.You asked me why I would stick up for the women.Easiest question all day.Because Ive seen this before many many times.

I haven't ben to China Just one time.My wife doesn't have just one friend that signed up with the agencies.I have read the letters you guy's send to the ladies.I really can't beleave you guys write that stuff in thoose letters.they read like a third rate porno novel.Try to explain to a Chinese women with limited English what the letter really says.Then see the look on her face when she understands what the letter says.

I have even met some of theese guys.That were trying to date my wifes friends.Halfe of them I wouldn't pee on if they were on fire.They were so close minded I was suprised that they could get to China on there own.One of theese guys pulls me aside in a restraunt.And asks me hey when does the fun start.I say what fun.He says when do i get to pull down her panties and we get it on.

If your wondering I told the girl what the guy said to me.She left him setting in the hotel.So the guy leaves China comes back to the states.And startes posting on Chnlove.How the girl is a scam how the agency is a scam.How he spent all that money on airfare and hotel.And how cheated and disapointed he feels.That was after the women told him why she left him setting in the hotel room.

I will admit this was just one extreme case.None of the other guys asked me that.But they all had the same mind set.They think they go all the way to China to meet.That the women owes them something.My question is what do you think she owes you?

She spent money to even have her profile on the web site.(Close to 3 months salary).When and if the man shows up she is going to have to pay the meeting fee.She will need to take time off of work.Costing her more money.Most of them pay for little things here and there taxis a meal or two.She is going to have to convince her family that this is the best  for her futur happiness.

So Scott I ask you again what do you think she owes you? Do you think she should just drop her life and follow you where you want to go.Forget her customs and culture.Do you think she needs to Beleave in your god,Have the same thoughts as you the same morals and scruppels.

Sorry man it probably isn't going to happen.If it does happen.You probably won't like the end result anyway.And if it do's happen you wonder why your so miserable.Because the women just follows you.Doesn't make you streatch your mind.Or change your thinking.You never learn anything new or exciting.From your wife.Or this little adventure all the members of this forum are living.

To answer your question.Yes they do take up are ways after they have ben living it for a little while.They do Change.My wife eats some of the same food I do.She do's some of the same things I do the way I do them.We even agree about culture and custom issues between the two different countries sometimes.

Somebody wants told me.You can take the women out of China.But your not going to take the China out of the women.Truer words have never ben spoken.

One of my wifes other friend who was signed with the same agency.Met a man he comes to China.Turns out he can't get out from under the hotel bed.So the man goes home calls her every night.says he loves her wants to marry her.Calls the next night says it is over.Does this everynight for 2 weeks.She finnaly drops the guy.After me and my wife tell her to.

I sign her up with a different company all together.She is getting 10 to 15 hits a day.She picks the man that interest her.Me and my wife help her write the letters and then translate the mans letters to her.So that she doesn't have to get up 2 hours earlier to try to translate the letters on her own.After 3 months the man just dissapers.I call the guy.to find out whats up.He tells me oh I started talking to another women.I ask is that your only reason.The man says no I dont really want to go to China.I ask him what are you doing on a marrage web site that only has Chinese women .he tells me he was just looking.He made first contact with the women.I tell my wifes friend the truth.It Crushes my wife's friend.

She takes a 2 month break.Asks me to sign her up again.I sign her up.Repeat above story at least 6 times to yourself.You mite come close to the number of men she talked to for the next 3 years.They all had different excuses.Different ideas not a one of them will make the trip.

Last guy comes out of know where first day on the site starts talking to my wifes friend.Her English is good enough.She doesn't need my help.5 months latter he is in Hong Kong.They get married.Have ben married for 3 months.He is working on the visa now.

So Scott I have seen this played out from both sides.And alot of the time it is the mans fault it doesn't work.We as men have all theese pre concived notions of what a Chinese women is supposed to be.And  how she is supposed to act. Then when it isn't like we think it should be.Most of us can't adjust. I have said this before.I will say it again.This is not for everybody.

Jessica was just putting up a defense mechanism so she didn't get hurt again.There had ben men before Mike who had wrote to her.And probably promised her the moon.When they didn't keep there promises she got hurt.

Some people still beleave that when you tell them you are going to do something.That you will actually do it.And after they get stepped on a few times.They learn and act just like the rest of the human race.

[David E]

Scott I did read the posts all of them.You asked me why I would stick up for the women.Easiest question all day.Because Ive seen this before many many times.

Maxx

That is the BEST piece of writing I have read here.....I will say no more, you have said it all.

Thanks...DavidE

[David5o]

Maxx,

I read your post two or three times, so i know where your coming from, and know what your trying to get over here. The problem with your argument as far as i see it anyway, is that if the two people involved are honest with each other, ie, she tells the the man of her past experiences, and that if he thinks along the same lines then there is no future between them. This also goes for the man involved too of course.. Without that honesty there is no foundation to any lasting relationship. Trust is also an issue here, it's during those corresponding times that trust is being laid down between you both.

There are always going to be men such as you describe in your post, just as there are going to be women of a similar ilk. Your argument about these women trying to protect themselves from such men, goes equally towards the men that have made the effort to visit these women. Remember, the women can just turn round, even on the first day of a visit and say to the guy visiting, ''sorry, but your not what i expected and end the relationship there and then'' and walk away without any comeback on herself. ...Or, after a few days of knowing this guy ...if she is of the opinion that this guy only wants to get into my pants, she has the same escape route. The man on the other hand, has no escape route as such. He has flown thousands of miles to be with this woman and is now in a foreign country, he's only hope is some sort of back-up plan. If he caused his own problem with the lady, then he only has himself to blame and that's life i'm afraid... So the protection thing you talk about, doesn't hold that much water as far as i'm conserned.

Continuing on this protection front, that your basing your post on. Do you really think that telling outright lies and generally being deceptive is acceptable as a protection plan?? I'm sorry but i don't, and again that goes for both parties. ...not just the ladies!!
If the guy or the lady isn't prepared to put time and effort into an internet relationship of this type then both sides are wasting each others time, ....so it's back to the honesty and trust thing again, and being prepared for some setbacks and heartache along the way. I'm afraid that's just a fact of life, it sure does suck at the time, but life goes on....


Referring to Mike...

Now i'm sure that everyone here knows that Mike is a very decent guy, and that would have been more than evident to his lady, Jessica if she had taken the time and effort to read his posts and asked the questions of him that she herself needed to know, She didn't!!   What sort of protection was she putting in place, by not telling him she had moved with her daughter to Japan?? ...None that i can see or think of!! (i don't know if she moved, before or after they had started communicating) What i do know is, that all of this could have been totally avoided if she had been as honest with Mike as he has always been with her....


I'm sure that Mike knows a lot more than has been let known here, he is the man on the ground so to speak, and using his intuition, wisdom, to work his own way through all this upset. His character is a strong one, and he's not a fool by any stretch of the imagination, so if he thinks he can see a way through his predicament then that's what he'll do. He can obviously see, that there is light at the end of the tunnel, and that if she is coming clean with him, and there are no more points of deception he is willing to start again from scratch. Only he knows his own limits to what he will accept and what he wont, and we should support him in whatever he decides.....


About myself Maxx, you were wrong to assume that i met Lucy face to face, She was living the other side of China when i first made contact with her, and we were both unable to visit for well over 3 months due to work commitments on both sides. So we had 3 months or so, doing exactly the same as everyone else on this site, with the one big exception, she speaks and writes English better than i do!! ...hahaha!! And virtually from the start (after about a month) also used IM/webcam.... telephone etc....

David.....

[shaun]

David I hear what you are saying but the time a effort thing here doesn't wash.  She is in Japan and tired of the whole thing it appears.  It seems she is a hopeless romantic non the less and listens to her translator.  The old, "Is this going to be the one?"  It is the quest that keeps most people going whether it be love or money.  Remember she was going back to Japan even before Mike got there.  So why did she stay?  Hopeless romantic or want to (forgive the language) screw over one more white guy?

This is all too much of a "conspiracy theory" minded thing.  Sure there are smoking guns all over the place but the problems with this one is she could have kept on going and not look back.  She didn't do that.

As far as men getting the shaft over these issues, most guys know now they are taking a big chance when they go.  We all start out wanting a simply beautiful Chinese woman who never says no to us, never argues with us, never complains, and waits on us hand and foot.  As we begin to learn we find that we have unreasonable expectations about Chinese women.  Women are women just like men are men to varying degrees.  Most western men would be more like Chinese men had we the chance.  Chinese women would be more like western women had they the chance.  I have met several Asian women that have spent most of their life here in the US and guess what other than being very attractive and more alluring than American women in most ways they are just like America women.

So what attracts us isn't always what keeps us.  I won't go into that right now.  I need to move back to Mikes situation.  There is one more angle that Mike is looking at that we have not covered.  It is the religious issue and knowing this isn't the religion thread it is Mikes thread so here I go.  Most people who are involved with their faith and Mike is that kind of person as am I, believe our steps are ordered by God.  I think it is fairly safe for me to say this and Mike can confirm or call bull to what I am saying.  Mike believes that God has a plan in him going there and that there is a plan for the two of them together.  If Mike didn't see God in this situation he would bug out in a hurry.

Jessica is a Christian too.  Look at a few of the things that have happened.  Jessica stayed when she could have left.  16 year old Sharon like Mike very much. Now tell me that isn't a God thing.  Jessica's mother who hates western men absolutely loves Mike right off the bat and gives him a Bible. Mike does not see these things as coincidences.  So, all things considered, Mike is moving forward, Jessica's faith in western men is being restored and these guys look like they have a real chance.  I say, Mike go for it.

Maxx, excellent post!!!! You are seeing it from a healthy prospective; both sides.